Slate-colored Junco or hybrid?

[teekaygee]

I saw this bird by my feeders this afternoon with all the Oregon Juncos, and noticed right away how different it looked.



At first I thought it might be a Slated-coloured Junco, however in this photo there is definitely some rust in the back.



So now I think maybe it's a hybrid....your thoughts/opinions...or expert knowledge (!) appreciated.

[mac]

Great photos!

I am no expert but it looks very much like a male "Slate coloured Junco" which can have varying amounts of brown on the back.

Mac

[Dave]

Excellent, teekaygee, for getting great pictures of the bird! A lot of 'rarer' birds can be IDed this way.

1. Your bird has white wing bars which would normally eliminate all of the regular Juncos around here. Even the slate-coloured normally does not have white-wing bars.

2. When I was in Black Hills, South Dakota I saw White-winged Juncos that were quite similar to what you show. Unforunately, there are the odd Slate-coloured Juncos that have white-wing bars and this will things get messed up.

So?
Judging by how dark of bird you have pictured here, I would lean to the Slate-coloured Junco (unusual case with white-wing bars).

This is not "expert" advice.

Dave

[teekaygee]

Thanks so much for the feedback! I also got similar feedback from Guy Monty that this is most likely a female Slate-colored Junco. I was not aware they could have signs of brown on their back.

btw, I was very lucky to get these shots. the bird had mostly been hopping around on my patio, and I was about ready to give up getting anything decent (though I know you can help with id's even from blurry photos ;D ;D ;D) when it flew up onto this perch by the feeder and stayed still long enough for a couple of shots.

So now I have another question...how often is the Slate-colored variety seen out this way?

cheers

[mac]

Hi Terri
The female Slate-colored Junco is described as 'brownish gray' overall. It's a moot point as to whether the bird in your pics could be described as such..especially the head on shot but it would be interesting to hear others views on this. If I was a betting man my money would still go on a male SCJ!

[Deleted]

Hi, everyone.

This post got me back to a topic that I have to dig out my guidebooks and refresh my brain on every fall. Triggered by Terri's photos, today might as well be the day, so I'm going to help my brain by writing some of this down. It's only scratching the surface. Please, anyone feel free to discuss or differ. If it's helpful to anyone else, so much the better.

Among the several dozen juncos that frequent our backyard feeders in urban Abbotsford every fall through spring, we have one or two adult male Slate-colored Juncos most every year. Every fall I dig out my field guides and other references, look up the variations in juncos, try to get my head around it all, and realize that it's a complicated picture. So I get lazy. I note the adult males, but don't really try to sort out the less brightly marked females or first year birds in the yard that also undoubtedly include some that aren't the local subspecies most years.

Like most other birders, I have tended to assume that if it looks like a Slate-colored but has brown on it, it must be a hybrid. But according to several guides, some Slate-colored Junco individuals can have much more brown on sides and/or back than this photo shows.

According to one reference, there are 12 subspecies of Dark-eyed Junco, falling into five main groups. There are only two main groups we deal with. The Oregon group of 5 west coast subspecies includes the local subspecies we're familiar with. The Slate-colored group of 3 eastern subspecies includes the widespread subspecies we usually look for in the non-breeding season as Slate-colored. It nests widely across eastern NA from the prairies to the east coast. Some female and first-year birds of this subspecies that could show up here can have considerably more brown on sides and back than this individual shows. Also, one in 200 males can show white wingbars as prominent as those on the White-winged subspecies Dave saw in the Black Hills. (That subspecies is confined to a very small area and would be very unlikely to show up here, although presumably anything is possible.)

Also there is one subspecies that nests in the Canadian Rockies area that is usually grouped with the Slate-colored group of subspecies but looks more like the local Oregon subspecies, and I would guess could perhaps be expected to wander here in the winter more frequently. According to the "big" Sibley guide, females of this subspecies can be virtually indistinguishable from the local Oregon subspecies females. Males are sort of in between in appearance but are distinguishable according to Sibley.

I tend to agree with Guy that Terri's photo best fits female Slate-colored. But I think first year male Slate-colored is also a possibility. See the photos on pages 236-238 of Sparrows of the United States and Canada : the Photographic Guide, by D. Beadle and J. Rising.

Google should get you lots of material on the web.

Bottom line: If you're so inclined, the juncos can be an interesting challenge, with a variety of possibilities to sort out. There may be more unusual juncos around your yard than you thought. And don't assume that only a junco that has no brown on it can be a Slate-colored.

There, I'm all sorted out in my brain as far as juncos go, until I look out the back window at the birds under the millet feeder and get confused again.

Good birding,

Stan Olson
Abbotsford

[mac]

Hi Stan

In view of your thoughtful post I had another look at various photos of Slate coloured Juncos and found this site with a couple of photos of male and female.
www.birds.cornell.edu/AllAboutBirds/BirdGuide/Dark-eyed_Junco.html

If the pics are good representations I think the one Terri saw is more likely to be a male - possibly as you suggest a first year bird. Fascinating subject!

[Dave]

Hi Stan,

Thanks for posting your comments.
How highly do you recommend the book by Beadle and Rising? 'Mandatory Christmas list addition', or 'so-so'?

Dave

[Deleted]

Hi, folks.

First, I think you have a good point, Mac. I think I now lean toward first-year male rather than first-year female, although I do not lightly disagree with Guy Monty, who has way more on-the-ground experience in Slate-colored territory (northern BC) than most birders I know. My reason would be the better-developed "bib" that characterizes males rather than females. The amount of brown on the back is much more variable and not as definitive a clue.

Second, Dave, while I am a bit of an addict when it comes to books, I am really not using my birding books very much these days and don't feel qualified to make recommendations on how other people should spend their hard-earned money.

I will say that there seems to be something of a pattern developing recently with books specializing in the identification of a family or grouping of birds with rather extensive text and accompanying plates or sometimes photos, often followed by a photographic guide to a similar grouping, with less text and more photos illustrating more plumages and variations.

An early example was A Field Guide to Hawks of North America (Peterson Field Guide Series), followed by A Photographic Guide to North American Raptors.

Somewhat later appeared A Field Guide to Hummingbirds of North America (same series), followed by Hummingbirds of North America, The Photographic Guide, and also A Guide to the Identification and Natural History of the Sparrows of the United States and Canada, followed by Sparrows of the United States and Canada, The Photographic Guide. You see a pattern here.

Putting the horse before the cart, Tanagers, Cardinals and Finches of the United States and Canada, The Photographic Guide has recently appeared. I don't know if this means that a companion identification guide similar to the other pairs above is planned, or if they have found that the photographic guides outsell the other guides, or what.

Now the hard part -- where should you spend your money? I am not experienced or qualified to say which are best in terms of accuracy, scientific value, etc. I will say that in some cases, such as raptors, there are other photographic guides that give you other options. Another group is shorebirds, which don't appear in the list above, but for which a whole spate of identification and photographic guides have appeared independently of each other.

For hummingbirds, the pair above are about the only option available, as far as I know.

For sparrows, the same is true, except that there are two volumes in the more detailed volulmes that are coming out to cover all the bird families of the world. But that is a huge subject for another discussion.

So I can suggest that if you're interested in raptors or shorebirds, you have a lot of guides to compare and evaluate. If you're interested in sparrows, the pair mentioned are about the only resources available of their kind for our part of the world that I'm aware of.

To choose between the identification guide and the photographic guide, my impression is that the identification guide is very useful if you need to know about subspecies, geographic distribution and variation, molt sequences, etc. If you just want to look at a bunch of possibilities for a bird you have pegged in general, and pick the closest one, with mimimal attention to subspecies, distribution, etc, the photographic guide will probably interest you more.

I find both helpful, and I think it is important to use the photographic guide to supplement the perspective you will gain by using the identification guide first, and NOT be tempted to take the shortcut of just looking for the picture in the photographic guide that you think is closest to what you saw without really familiarizing yourself with the bird as a species.

Where does all this lead to? I think if you are interested in going beyond the field guides for some groupings of birds that you see around here, or that you have a particular interest in, then you would be happy with any of these. But be aware that none of them is all you would hope for. For example, the illustrations of Slate-colored Junco in the Sparrow photographic guide are much better than those in the Sparrow identification guide, in my estimation. But the textual information in the identification guide is very helpful.

One question is, How much of this information do you need? For example, How many hummingbird species do we see around here? If you only need to know about the two species that are expected here, do you really need a book that describes the 24 species seen in the US and Canada? (On the other hand, if you are planning a trip to Southeastern Arizona in August, you will probably find it indispensible.)

But how many more ways can I say, I really can't answer your question in black and white. I can only try to give you a bit more perspective than you may have had before.

I hope some others on the list will chime in with their thoughts. I know there are others on this list who are more qualified than I am to evaluate these kinds of resources.

I hope this helps a bit, at least.

Stan

[teekaygee]

I'm late getting back to this, but wanted to thank you for all the information. Stan you may just have given me a bit of a project, as one of the other juncos in my yard is a bit different, and so perhaps is a different subspecies. If the weather ever clears up, I'll try and get a shot of it to add to this discussion.

[teekaygee]

Well luck was with me today; I managed to get this shot...too bad the bird is looking away but I think it is still quite obvious the head isn't really black like most Oregon Juncos.



so do you think is this just a pale Oregon Junco, or a different subspecies?

[Deleted]

Well, Terri, I think I would favour female Oregon subspecies. The deeply downward curved (concave) bib is characteristic of the Oregon subspecies, while the main (Eastern Canada) subspecies of Slate-colored typically shows a convex curvature across the lower edge of the bib (hood). Females of the main Slate-colored subspecies should show noticeably less contrast in colour between the head and the sides than this bird: some show almost no contrasting "hood" at all, according to the photographic guide by Rising and Beadle.

This one looks a lot like the female Oregon in ("big") Sibley, but it also resembles the female of the Rocky Mountain subspecies of Slate-colored as illustrated in Sibley. These are the two that are very similar, which is one of the factors that can complicate the picture.

So to my eye, the odds are that it's a female Oregon, but I can't rule out female Slate-colored Rocky Mountain subspecies.

Nice photo -- makes it easier to look for the field marks.

Stan

[Dave]

Thanks, Stan, for all the advice on more detailed guides. I appreciate your comments on the order of reading the identification text and looking at the pictures after. I think the "match the pictures" idea would be very tempting, but I see the danger that you pointed out.

Thanks again,

Dave

[Gord]

Here's one from my parent's feeder this afternoon.

I dont think Ive ever seen one with such a strong contrast between the head and body. What do you make of it, Stan? Sibley's has the Rocky Mountain form that looks the most similar.

[Deleted]

Looks to me like that's probably the most likely option, Gord.

For starters, I note in looking through the guides again (I never can remember all these details!), that on the Slate-colored subspecies group, but not on the Oregon subspecies group, the dark bib extends onto the flanks. This individual definitely shows this characteristic in the bottom photo, indicating it belongs to one or other of the Slate-colored group of subspecies. The lack of brown on the sides and back confirms this. If it had brown on the back and the sides were light brown, I would probably pass over it as a normal Oregon Junco of the local subspecies.

For those who actually care about all these murky details, you could refer to my posting earlier in this same thread (Nov. 1 last year) for a summary of the relevant subspecies groups.

Sibley (the big version) shows a subspecies (normally considered among the Slate-colored group) nesting in the Canadian Rockies, with convex ("U" shaped) lower edge of bib, and strong contrast between bib (darker gray) and back/sides (lighter gray). This is fairly distinctive and looks closest to the photo. It's the subspecies cismontanus.

(By the way, while I have enormous respect for Sibley and I use either Sibley west or big Sibley most of the time as my primary field guides, when is he going to publish a guide naming the proper subspecies names, as is done by all other serious guides, instead of leaving us to figure out which subspecies he is showing, from only his general descriptions? That's my rant for the day.)

The subspecies cismontanus (the one referred to by Sibley in this case), part of the Slate-colored subspecies group, nests from south central Yukon to central interior BC and west central Alberta. Another subspecies, montanus, nests from central interior BC and southwest Alberta south to Idaho. This latter is considered part of the Oregon group of subspecies and is very similar to our local subspecies (shufeldti) of Oregon junco (Byers, Curson & Olsson, Sparrows and Buntings, p.247-248; Rising, A Guide to the Identification and Natural History of the Sparrows of the United States and Canada, p. 228; Beadle & Rising, Sparrows of the United States and Canada : the Photographic Guide, p.234; Pyle, Identification Guide to North American Birds, p.594).

To further complicate matters, while Sibley pictures this subspecies as all gray and white, with darker head and bib, Beadle & Rising state that cismontanus is browner than other Slate-colored subspecies (p.234), and they include a photo (p.237) of a Slate-colored with fairly brownish back and tertials which they call a nominate but say it could be cismontanus. So in the end after I've waded through all the material I never feel very certain about any of this.

I wouldn't say I've never seen a likely Slate-colored Junco with such strong contrast as your photo shows, but most of what I take to be nominate Slate-colored Juncos certainly show less contrast than this one. Most of them show very little contrast between head and back. However, I have seen the odd one with similar contrast but with concave lower edge of bib rather than the convex lower edge shown by your bird. What subspecies such a form would fit in, I don't know.

By the way, one of the first things I noticed on your bird, Gord, is the distinctive pattern on the flanks, below the wings. I've noticed that this feature is often quite helpful in recognizing different individual Slate-colored Juncos that show up in our yard off and on.

Stan