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Post by Dave on Aug 23, 2011 13:13:20 GMT -8
I thought I was volunteering this summer in construction, but the recipent has graciously informed me that he would like to buy me a birding camera as a 'thank-you' gift. I so I took my Dad's camera to Lens+Shutter in Abby to see about getting the exact same set-up as my Dad has, since I am familiar with using it. He has: Canon 50D Canon Lens EF 300mm 1:4 L IS Extender EF 1.4x II The owner of the store gave me some interesting advice that I am not quite sure what to do with. He said that I should buy a Canon 7D (the new equivalent of the old 50D) and instead of buying the same lens, I should buy a Sigma 150-500mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Here is what it looks like: Lens Construction 21 Elements in 15 Groups Angle of View 16.4 - 5 degrees Number of Diaphragm Blades 9 Blades Minimum Aperture F22 Minimum Focusing Distance 220cm Maximum Magnification 1:5.2 Filter Size 86mm Dimensions Diameter 94.7mm X Length 252mm Weight 1,910g He told me that quite a few customers have bought it for wildlife photography and he has heard a lot of good reports about it. He says they shoot nice images at 500mm even though they are doing it 'handheld'. I lifted the lens up and it was surprisingly light, barely heavier than the Canon 300mm+Teleconvertor that I had brought in to the store. I don't know this owner, but my Dad bought his camera there. I trust he wasn't trying to make more cash by giving this advise since the 500 mm Sigma setup is slightly cheaper than the 300m Canon lens. But how much difference will the F4 Canon be compared to the F5.6 Sigma? So, I appeal for advice. Does anyone have this lens? Even if you don't, what thoughts do you have about the two options? Thanks,
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Post by tmanson on Aug 23, 2011 13:44:07 GMT -8
Hi Dave: You take great shots already, so I am looking forward to the results from whatever camera set up you get. I have basically the same set up as your dad, and I have been using it for about 3 years now, and am very pleased. I like not having the extra step of having to zoom, as I generally assume all my bird shots will be at maximum focal length. The only piece of advice I have for probably either system relates to the fact that you will be carrying it around as a hand held camera. Having watched another birder's use of a unique camera strap system called Black Rapid, I ended up purchasing one of these. I know it is available from Vistek on line, but can probably be purchased elsewhere. It is an across the shoulders system, and really distributes the weight of the camera nicely, so you don't get neck, and/or shoulder strain after hours in the field. Using this system the camera can be brought up to eye level instantly, enabling you to get the shot in the quickest possible time. Knowing you, I am sure you worked very hard without any expectation of compensation, but it is nice that the recipient of all your hard work is gifting you with a great piece of optical equipment that will definitely increase your enjoyment of birding. Have fun. Thor
Thor Manson Oliver, B.C.
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Post by butterfly on Aug 23, 2011 13:55:12 GMT -8
Nice gift Dave! The 300mm Canon lens will give you more clear and sharper images but the sigma will give you a longer reach as well as give you the ability to get landscape shots. It all depends on what you want.
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Post by dpeppar on Aug 23, 2011 18:56:06 GMT -8
This year I've gone through 3 zooms and a prime. I've sold all the zooms and settled on the prime. Also consider that at 500 the sigma in at f6.3 and to handhold at 500 will be a challange because your speed will be slower at 6.3.
A good lens will last forever. However the body will be out of date in a few years.
Nice problem though!
DaveP
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Post by Dave on Aug 23, 2011 21:01:36 GMT -8
Thor: Great to hear from you. I was at a inlaw reunion in Penticton on the weekend and was very tempted to sneak away to pay you a visit! Thanks for the advice. The strap looks awesome and will be on my Christmas list for sure. A general questions: 'What do you do with your binoculars when you have the camera on?' Dave, pardon my ignorance, but what are zooms and a prime? Thanks for the clarity, Joanne or Bruce. Also, I loved the comment from you sometime ago correcting my spelling before my students see it . Thanks so far.
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Post by tmanson on Aug 24, 2011 5:53:50 GMT -8
Dave: A very good question on the arrangement of your bins, and the camera when wearing a Black Rapid, considering the Black Rapid strap goes across your chest. This was my one reservation when I was considering purchasing this system. It all works out fine, although a little hard to describe using just words. I wear a harness system for my bins, but the same issue would exist no matter how you carry your bins. What I do is put on my camera first, with the Black Rapid strap going from my left shoulder across my chest, with the camera basically sitting by my right hip. Then I put on my bins with my harness, so that the bins sit kind of where my chest joins my belly. When a photo opportunity comes up, I slide the camera up to my eye. The Black Rapid strap exerts a slight lifting motion on my bins strap, but it is barely noticeable, and not a problem. I've even done it the other way around, but as the camera is a lot heavier than the bins, lifting the bins up to my eye, I can also feel the weight of the camera, so the first method is preferrable. Hope this makes sense. Thor
Thor Manson Oliver, B.C.
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Post by dpeppar on Aug 24, 2011 7:28:52 GMT -8
Dave, A prime is a lens at one length (your Cannon 300mm) and the Sigma is a zoom at 50-500.
It is my belief that if anyone wants to take good bird pix's they need a system that works for birds only. No compromises will do. If you want to take landscapes while birding bring along a extra len or a small pocket camera.
In bird photography the name of the game is sharpness, speed (f stop) and auto focus.
Matching a camera manufacture with their lens is always good and the 1.4 must be matched with the lens. If I was going to get a zoom for a Canon body I would also look at a Canon zoom.
You can never correct sharpness (even in post processing). You can improve sharpness by using tripods etc (see Ken Pugh's list in this forum about 6 months ago).
Last night on the CBC Radio show Ideas the great photographer Patterson from NB was talking about his first photoclass and on the first night the instructor asked each student what kind of tripod they had. If they said they had none they were sent home until they got one.
I carry bins as well as the camera on a monopod. I like to think of myself as a bird watcher first and a photographer second but that gets a little muddled at times.
DaveP
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Post by martin on Aug 24, 2011 11:46:07 GMT -8
Dave Quite a dilema you have, to give you a quick answer given that specific chose, I would buy the Canon 300mm F4L + the Cannon 1.4x III, ( the 1.4x Mark III tele is the new one) Knowing what I know now, that is just my opinion, and good for wildlife and birding
I was looking at the that lens and I opted for the Canon Zoom. only later on to by the Canon 500mm fixed prime + 1.4x
But you should research it yourself so what ever you buy you are happy with that.
Your shots will also be alot crisper with a good quality tripod and sturdy ball head ( or a small gimble jobo makes one for about 250.00)
There is alot of info on the web about these lens just google them with comparison added to the title.
You will always get a crisper shot with a prime( the fixed 300mm telephoto) if you shot the sigma and canon at 300. they would have to be compaired side by side in a fixed situation.
Adding the 1.4x will add a "1" f-stop but it is still better than the Sigma.
The sigma is a very good lens though, best for the money and a little more versitlie without changing lenses, that is the only benifet in my opinion.
Hope this helps.
Dave I carry both, bins around the neck and camera on the tripod over my shoulder + a camera bag. In winter my bins go in my jacket pocket somtimes.
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Post by ian on Aug 24, 2011 13:28:43 GMT -8
Good to hear you are getting the opportunity to get an upgraded photo outfit. Always a fun time. Here's my two cents. If your primary use or intended use is 'birding' then the system should be best suited for that first. Virtually all of you shooting will be at maximum focal length. You can never have too much length. That being said, budget is always the deciding factor. The biggest problem is the fact that you will have auto focus issues if your lens or lens-converter combo is slower than f5.6. The Canon 300f4 + 1.4 converter is a f5.6 equiv. The Sigma, at 500mm is a f6.3 lens. Auto focus may be an issue at the main focal length you are targeting. The Sigma isn't quite as sharp at the long end as the Canon 300 plus converter combo will be. I faced a similar choice last year when choosing a moderately priced long telephoto. I shoot a Canon 7D with the Canon 400 f5.6 fixed telephoto. I did explore the Canon 300 f4 with 1.4 converter and it was a close second option for me. The advantage of the 300 plus converter is that the 300 has IS and the 400 f5.6 does not. Although it is an older IS design it still will give about 1 1/2 stops equivalent stabilization. When fighting light vs shutter speed constantly, any IS advantage is helpful when hand holding. The 400 f5.6 is very fast focusing and claims to be marginally sharper then the 300+converter combo, weighting my decision, but I haven't tested them together myself. I feel the bottom line is stay with Canon lenses if you are looking at a Canon body. I am starting to think Mike B. has it right with the Canon 300 f2.8 IS and a 1.4 converter giving very good light for quick focusing and a tack sharp lens to boot. This might be the ultimate compromise between hand-hold-ability and length. With my 'first born' having already left the nest, I had nothing to bargain with and settled on the 400 f5.6.
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Post by Dave on Aug 24, 2011 20:14:18 GMT -8
Wow. This is all very helpful.
I am taking notes....
I seem to be straying away from the Sigma even though some reviewers online passionately defend the lens as the best ever....
Hmm......decisions, decisions.
Thanks so far. Dave
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Post by Gord on Aug 24, 2011 22:01:43 GMT -8
Dave, I too would go with the 300mm with option of a 1.4x teleconverter. With the 1.4x, you'll basically get a 420mm f/5.6 lens that is only 80mm shorter than the 500mm f/5.6 Sigma but probably at better image quality and lens function (focus speed etc). However, Id be willing to bet you'll use the 300mm without the 1.4 more than you'd think.
You might reach out just a bit further with the 500mm f/5.6, but I dont think you'll find it's worth it outside of maybe capturing important documentary shots of a rarity or something (that would have probably worked just as well if you used the 300mm anyway). Your photos from Tunkwa certainly show you can do well with 300mm in terms of quality and getting a nice capture.
Considering you can pick up a 50mm lens or even a slower wide(ish) angle zoom (18-55mm) for relatively cheap, I would buy a lens better suited to your main pursuit (birds) and have the shorter lens for the other uses (family, landscapes etc). You can fit the smaller lens in your pocket and switch over as you need.
Take the 300mm. It will serve you very very well. A 500mm lens is tempting, but unless the interest is to get one that has to be on a tripod all the times (meaning a big f/2.8 or f/4) and to lug the contraption around, I would avoid it because the real benefits of a 500mm lens will be best (maybe only) found in the expensive ones.
It has already been said, but it's all a balance between weight, quality and expense. In my opinion, expense aside, a 300mm with 1.4x converter (on brighter days) is probably the maximum length people who will have to go without a tripod on a lot of their outings can go and still get pleasing images.
In my dreams, I would get a 300mm f/2.8. I would expect that the 1.4x converter I would also buy (just because) would spend most outings in my pocket.
I should mention Ive used a 300mm f/4 in the past and was very happy with it too.
Look forward to hearing how your camera shopping concludes! Hope my thoughts are helpful, and would certainly enjoy sharing what I can on using the camera when you get it.
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Post by davidandkaren on Aug 25, 2011 5:40:32 GMT -8
Its all been said already but there is no question primes are the way to go. Our Canon 400m f5.6 was just over $1000 (we got it mail order from the USA) - I can't imagine how difficult it would be to capture such small subjects with a 300m. (You can also use a teleconverter with a 400m f5.6 but it takes a little trickery to get it to work)
Previously we had a 40D and we elected to go with the 5D because we wanted the full frame for landscapes. All I can say is that the difference in those two cameras is night & day. I can crop 95% of a 5D image and be left with a sharp, usable 4x6 image. This means a bird too far away to make an ID can still be photographed provided you are able meter at the right distance.
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Post by martin on Aug 25, 2011 9:46:18 GMT -8
Its all been said already but there is no question primes are the way to go. Our Canon 400m f5.6 was just over $1000 (we got it mail order from the USA) - I can't imagine how difficult it would be to capture such small subjects with a 300m. (You can also use a teleconverter with a 400m f5.6 but it takes a little trickery to get it to work) Previously we had a 40D and we elected to go with the 5D because we wanted the full frame for landscapes. All I can say is that the difference in those two cameras is night & day. I can crop 95% of a 5D image and be left with a sharp, usable 4x6 image. This means a bird too far away to make an ID can still be photographed provided you are able meter at the right distance. Dave Just to clarify the above so you don't get to confused as long as you get the 300mm USM IS F4 "L" lens it will work fine with the Canon 1.4x II tele. and the 7D . You want the IS (image stabilization), USM ( ultra sonic motor) , "L" (is there top of the line lens) and f4. If you buy the the older f5.6 you have to tape the extender contact pins to trick the camera into thinking there is no extender for the auto focus to work. I believe Joanne and Bruce use the 300mm f4 L lens and 1.4II extender. I am not sure if they are using 5D or 7D. You could talk to them a bit more I use the 1.4x III extender with my 500mm F4 L lens with a 7D and auto focus works fine, it's just not as quick sometimes but It is not a problem. That will also bring your f-stop up to 5.6 I agree with David and Karen the 5D is a better camera, but it is also different than the 7D , and $500-600 more. But side by side the shots are even crisper with the 5D . ( I think the 5D is full frame the 7D is 1.6. and I'm not sure but I think the EFS lenses don't work with the 5D ). Just check all its compatibilities. My next camera will hopefully be a 1D mark 4? good luck
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Post by kenpossum on Sept 1, 2011 0:28:00 GMT -8
Lots o good advice on here. Personally, I am cashing in my Nikon 80-400mm f/5.6 telephoto and replacing it with a prime or fixed 300mm f/4 with a 1.4 AF teleconverter. Prime lenses are always sharper. I am presently using a 35 year old 300mm f/4 fully manual prime lens with a 2x teleconverter. Whichever lens I use I prefer manual exposure, but the autofocus of the new lenses is handy for birds in flight.
Whichever lens you use, a tripod will be the single most important piece of equipment to improve sharpness in the majority of images you take. Hand holding with VR or IS can work with a sunny day high shutter speed and close subject distance, but for many cloudy situations where you want a low ISO for sharpness (100-200) or greater depth of field (f/8 or more) you will be getting many 'soft' or not so sharp images. Which tripod you choose is very important as many are very difficult to use in the field. I prefer a Manfrotto 055B with a heavy duty (large) ball head. The ball head is absolutely essential.
My most often used lens for scenics is a Sigma 10-20mm. It is fantastic.
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Post by theanimal on Sept 4, 2011 22:01:05 GMT -8
Dave, I'm considering getting a Sigma 50-500mm OS. And I've heard lots of wonderful things about the 150-500mm. Probably will be one of the best investments outside of getting a prime super-telephoto (which for most of us is completely out of our price range - even though I'm hoping that I can save up eventually for 600mm f/4 eventually).
But Dave, like everyone else...who responded. You have a prime in the 300mm f/4 L IS...and that's a great birding lens (I'm a Nikon guy...not a Canon, so I've never handled that one - it's a darned sight better than the 300 f/4 that Nikon has). Get yourself a couple of extenders (if any Canon users know what the #X ratio of the Canon extenders are, please let me know) and it'll do everything you want it to do.
If there is one thing that I could suggest to you, it is to purchase the new 2.0X Extender from Canon. I know that it will reduce the aperture to f/8 but unless you're selling images, the reduction in IQ will be negligible
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