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Gulls
Feb 24, 2019 16:21:50 GMT -8
Randy likes this
Post by oldfulica on Feb 24, 2019 16:21:50 GMT -8
Gulls are not my forte. Anyone want to wade in here? There are 5 pale gulls in the photo that are more than likely, Glaucous-winged. But what are the rest? Glaucous-winged X Western? Here is another gull that I had pegged for Western but the back doesn't appear to be dark enough. There were a few more of these at Wilband.
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Post by Randy on Feb 24, 2019 18:14:26 GMT -8
Nor my forte but I'll take a shot...
Hybrids in first one. Probably hybrid in second one with more western than GW...mantle seems not dark enough for pure western. I considered Thayer's but face doesn't seem delicate enough and legs too pale pink...
Gord???
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Gulls
Feb 24, 2019 22:31:05 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by ed on Feb 24, 2019 22:31:05 GMT -8
This is my take on this shot. If you look carefully at sun-shade contrast all the light gulls are oriented towards the camera(slightly but enough to have direct light on them) and all the gulls having dark mantles are oriented slightly away from the camera(and the sun). Check the dark mantled gulls heads they are in blue shadow while the light mantled gulls heads are in sunlight. You can see this borne out in the 2nd from the right full. Dark mantle in shade, light mantle in sun.
I’m sure there are hybrids as well but difficult to tell if the light causes that much contrast. Ed Klassen
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Gulls
Feb 25, 2019 8:09:06 GMT -8
ed likes this
Post by oldfulica on Feb 25, 2019 8:09:06 GMT -8
This is my take on this shot. If you look carefully at sun-shade contrast all the light gulls are oriented towards the camera(slightly but enough to have direct light on them) and all the gulls having dark mantles are oriented slightly away from the camera(and the sun). Check the dark mantled gulls heads they are in blue shadow while the light mantled gulls heads are in sunlight. You can see this borne out in the 2nd from the right full. Dark mantle in shade, light mantle in sun. I’m sure there are hybrids as well but difficult to tell if the light causes that much contrast. Ed Klassen Thanks for the input Ed. We watched the birds for quite a while and observed them walking around. They didn't seem to vary much as they entered and exited different shade positions. The primaries are quite different in both species too. The light ones really stood out no matter what position they were in. One would think a hybrid would be unusual however the gulls in front were quite numerous.
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Gulls
Feb 25, 2019 8:13:57 GMT -8
Post by oldfulica on Feb 25, 2019 8:13:57 GMT -8
Nor my forte but I'll take a shot... Hybrids in first one. Probably hybrid in second one with more western than GW...mantle seems not dark enough for pure western. I considered Thayer's but face doesn't seem delicate enough and legs too pale pink... Gord??? Thanks Randy. I looked at Thayers also and their heads are mostly mottled in winter plumage in addition to what you said.
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Gulls
Feb 25, 2019 22:06:01 GMT -8
Randy likes this
Post by Gord on Feb 25, 2019 22:06:01 GMT -8
My thoughts are from the group photo there's Glaucous-winged and Glaucous-winged x Western Gull hybrids in that flock. Hybrids are very common now and there's been times where they've come close to outnumbering pure Glaucous-winged Gulls in certain flocks I've observed. Pure Western Gulls, at least for me, have been exceedingly scarce the last few years. Today was no different and I thought it ironic with my find here in the mall parking lot. At first I was hoping for a pure Western but there's some hints that there's some Glaucous-winged in the family history. The dark back is pretty good looking and sure stands out with the pure Glaucous-winged in the background who's standing in the same light at the same angle. Lighting is a worthwhile thing to consider with bright sunny days holding the potential to over emphasize the lightness or darkness of the backs. Dsc_8992 by Gord G, on Flickr But, the wing tips are a bit off and not strongly black like they should be for a pure Western. Dsc_9001 by Gord G, on Flickr In flight some dark grey in the primary feathers can be seen against the black further confirming my suspicions. Dsc_9005 by Gord G, on Flickr The head and neck is nice and white which it should be for a pure Western Gull who should show maybe the faintest streak here and there. Oftentimes a hybrid even with a decently dark back and blackish wingtips will have varying amount of streaks and smudging on the head and neck. It's worth noting that at this time of year the birds are molting and part of these two species' patterns is to get white heads for the summer. The first photo I shared shows this well with the Glaucous-winged in the background well on the way to getting a white head that it wouldn't have had a month-six weeks ago. So head colour not safe to use at this time of year. The bill is pretty good for a Western being thick-tipped looking. The eye ring is usually yellow on a Western. The photo doesn't show it well but through the binoculars from 20 feet some pink mottling could be seen. Glaucous-winged have pink orbital rings. Image8 by Gord G, on Flickr Now if I saw this bird from a bit of a distance these subtle Glaucous-winged influences might not be readily seen and I might have took the plunge and called it a Western Gull and my first for 2019 and second since the one I saw in 2018. A few more photos I found in my collection of pure Western Gulls for comparison especially the wingtips. It might not be readily seen what it means to have 'black' wingtips until the real thing is seen. Yellow orbital ring might also be seen if you squint at your screen just right. This guy is getting a hint of yellow on the legs which some Western Gull can get when they're getting closer to breeding season. Come fall they'll go back to pink. Image7 by Gord G, on Flickr _dsc4177 by Gord G, on Flickr Western Gull Salish Pond Feb 3, 2008 008 by Gord G, on Flickr There's also some more photos and discussion here. bcbirding.proboards.com/thread/10337/glaucous-winged-western-gullThanks for the post, Len, and for the other good comments and discussion.
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Gulls
Feb 26, 2019 8:35:05 GMT -8
Post by oldfulica on Feb 26, 2019 8:35:05 GMT -8
My thoughts are from the group photo there's Glaucous-winged and Glaucous-winged x Western Gull hybrids in that flock. Hybrids are very common now and there's been times where they've come close to outnumbering pure Glaucous-winged Gulls in certain flocks I've observed. Thanks for the post, Len, and for the other good comments and discussion. Very nice response Gord. I like the closeup of the primaries. It illustrates how they may appear black but have faintly light shade in a hybrid. I guess what was throwing me off was that there were so many hybrids. As you stated, almost as many as regular "pure" forms. Of course they were too far away to see the eyes. There are hundreds of gulls on Sumas prairie now and it is fun to take a field guide take some time with them.
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Post by paulos on Feb 26, 2019 15:29:09 GMT -8
Gull hybridization can be extensive, especially on the coast. Down in the Puget Sound in Washington I have seen flocks of gulls were I was hard pressed to find a single pure Glaucous-winged Gull.
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Gulls
Mar 4, 2019 22:16:57 GMT -8
Post by Gord on Mar 4, 2019 22:16:57 GMT -8
Gull hybridization can be extensive, especially on the coast. Down in the Puget Sound in Washington I have seen flocks of gulls were I was hard pressed to find a single pure Glaucous-winged Gull. That's a bit scary. If the trend continues here, I think we may be in the same boat as well in the next 10 years.
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Post by graeme45 on Mar 5, 2019 8:39:22 GMT -8
Since the number of hybrids is so extensive it would appear that they are able to reproduce (not sterile). Since the hybridization zone is so extensive, and apparently growing, how long before we ask whether these two species are actually just one?
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Gulls
Mar 9, 2019 13:46:51 GMT -8
Post by Gord on Mar 9, 2019 13:46:51 GMT -8
paulos are these hybrids not referred to as "Olympic Gulls" Graeme I have to wonder if you're going to be right that eventually the two species won't exist at least not in a recognizable form. Perhaps the Western with their southern range might prevail as well as the northern population of Glaucous-winged but the hybrid zone will be very wide and probably, without any real barriers, continue to spread north and south?
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Gulls
Mar 11, 2019 14:27:53 GMT -8
Post by paulos on Mar 11, 2019 14:27:53 GMT -8
Yes, I've heard Olympic Gulls or Puget Sound Gulls.
I don't know if this is just incidental or episodic, but I tend to find a much higher rate of hybrids near the Fraser and Vedder rivers in the Fraser Valley. On farms and fields I have noticed the rate seems to be less.
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